New England Network for Child, Youth & Family Services

NEN ROUNDTABLE: DIFFICULT PEOPLE IN THE WORKPLACE

Managing difficult employees is a problem for every agency. Incompetent, troubled, or troubling staff eat up a lot of time and energy, and the question of what exactly to do about them isn't made any easier by the fact that sometimes — just sometimes — a problem employee is also talented enough to be worth the effort. In this, the first in a series of roundtable discussions NEN is having with youth service professionals on a variety of topics, we checked in with a few long-standing members to see how they deal with the issue. The Roundtable is part of NEN's Partners in Leadership Initiative.

Participants

Barbara Rachelson, Executive Director, Lund Family Center, Burlington, Vt.
Mike Duggan, Executive Director, Domus, Stamford, Conn.
Maurie Bergeron, Program Leader, Transition to Independent Living Services, LUK Crisis Center, Inc., Fitchburg, Mass.

NEN: What are the common characteristics of the difficult people you've worked with? Barbara Rachelson: It sounds like Tolstoy, but each difficult person is difficult in their own unique way. Sometimes somebody might be a peach when they're with you, but be undermining you elsewhere. Or sometimes they might be verbally abusive or have a hot temper. And sometimes people might be really great at certain things — so they're high-functioning in some areas and incredibly destructive in others. It's not always so black and white.		It sounds like Tolstoy, but each difficult person is difficult in their own unique way.
Maurie Bergeron: What I find the most difficult is the folks who are unable or unwilling to take responsibility for their own behavior or work, and they poison the group with a real negativity that permeates everything. Then the infection transfers to other folks and it's really hard to pull people out of it. Mike Duggan: There are people who at least appear, because of lack of self-confidence, to show signs of being very controlling. But obviously they can't control everything, so their stuff comes out in other ways. What we say is that they don't want to play in anybody else's sandbox; you have to come into theirs. They can be abrupt, they gossip, they try to get other people to join in. Their conversations are all around how they've been wronged. They can be great with some things, but what it comes back to is there's a lot of excuses, a lot of blaming and finger-pointing. Maurie Bergeron: A lot of it is intangible — folks may be great at getting their paperwork done, but not without taking three people down with them emotionally. So it's frustrating. Sometimes you just can't grab it. Then when you meet with (a difficult person) and try to talk to them about it, they're like, 'What? I don't know what you mean by that. That's insulting to me.' Barbara Rachelson: Another thing is that the amount of damage somebody can do takes a really long time to undo. It's not just a matter of firing them, or getting them to quit. There's an afterlife that can set you back quite a bit.... There are times when you're engaged in disciplinary action with somebody, or you have terminated them, and you can't say anything about it. You're taking the high road and keeping your mouth shut, and you're being trashed. You know the story going around at the agency is BS, and you can't do a thing about it. You walk into a meeting and people look at you like you're Cruella DeVille. It's one of those lonely-at-the-top times. NEN: Given that some degree of conflict is inevitable, what's the ideal? Barbara Rachelson: There is definitely the opportunity for people to agree or disagree, and give input, but it's done face to face with no triangulation. People are honest with their feedback, but it's done in a professional and non-emotional manner. They receive feedback the same way, and don't feel personally attacked. They can let things go and not hold onto them for months or years. Maurie Bergeron: Sometimes (after a conflict), people are concerned about retribution. Although it is uncomfortable, it needs to be dealt with, so when you leave the conversation you don't worry about it and take it with you. You have to have the ability to have a purposeful and directed conversation that is real to move things ahead.

NEN: How do you create that kind of environment? Mike Duggan: The organization's culture has to be one where there is brutal, consistent honesty, and it has to be modeled by the leaders in the agency, and between them. Really, you're just teaching adults to talk to each other like they did when they were 5. It's like Social Work 101. You yourself have to understand your own stuff. For instance, if you're someone who's vindictive, and you're just going to wait and watch until someone screws up and then 'See, you did it too!' you have to realize that. Once you know your stuff, you can be heard. As leader, you have to model the behavior you want to see in the agency.		The agency's culture has to be one where there is brutal, consistent honesty, and it has to be modeled by the leaders and between them.
Maurie Bergeron: I'd like to believe that it's about modeling and that's enough, and I think that at times it can be. With particular programs, though, I've had to go through a couple of variations of staff groups before I can get to that place, and it necessitates people being weeded out and needing to leave. It's purposely developing the right culture. What's worked in the past is a lot of supervision with folks, a lot of rote conversations. Mike Duggan: Anybody I need to interview, I say to them, 'I can check your references, but I'm not going to find anybody who says you stink. But I'll know within 90 days who you are, so tell me now. Do you gossip, do you come to work late, do you bite? Whatever it is, I'm going to find out.' When somebody first comes to work here, they get a 30-point checklist: I will be a good employee, I will smile, I won't gossip. People say, 'You really have to point all this out?' And we say, these are all the issues that we've experienced. NEN: Where is the line? When does a difficult person become too much effort? Barbara Rachelson: For me, it's when the expectations have been clearly laid out and it's been repeatedly documented that the person's been asked to show immediate and sustained improvement, and they haven't done it. But it's a tough one, a gray area. The social worker in us can make us say, 'Okay, they can change.' But at some point, you're enabling and perpetuating the problem if you're not dealing with it. Mike Duggan: I ask myself, 'Have you had enough? Are you sick of listening to the complaints against this person?' My own personal thing is, I look at it and say, does the annoying stuff they're doing outweigh all the great things they do? I'm always doing that side-by-side comparison. And I check with other people — what do we think, is it worth it or not? Maurie Bergeron: The minute it hits the kids is where I draw the line. Barbara Rachelson: Exactly.

NEN: When the problem spirals down to that level, what do you start seeing? Maurie Bergeron: The kids hear the gossip. They start talking about it. You have those parallel realities that are happening — whatever's happening within the staff system plays out in the kids' system. The kids start mirroring some of the behavior that's happening. And then you say, 'This is where it stops.'				The kids hear the gossip. They start mirroring some of the behavior that's happening. And then you say, 'This is where it stops.'
NEN: Are there trends in the workforce — in the supply of workers, or the characteristics of new workers — that are impacting your thinking about working with difficult people? Barbara Rachelson: When there's a position to fill, there are times that I have to convince my managers that just getting a body in is not the answer. It's better to wait until you have the right person. But people panic. They want to hire when there are mediocre references, or they're not thoroughly checked, or [prospective employees] get references from co-workers and not supervisors. Anybody can get a reference from a co-worker — that's not acceptable. If we just take the first person who looks okay, we almost sign our own fate. Maurie Bergeron: It's a problem with direct-care staff. Maybe I'm getting old, but I don't know what new people think 'working' is. It's 'What do you mean I need to take that kid to a doctor's appointment?' I don't know if it's just a different work ethic, but it's 'I'll stop at my 40 hours, and that's it, then I'm out the door' which I understand they have a right to do, that's what they were hired for. People often have no experience — and direct care has always been that way — but now they have less life experience as well. So people just out of college with a bachelor's degree will say, 'I want $35,000 a year, or I won't take the job.' It takes my breath away sometimes. NEN: What about people you can't be honest with — because they're your funder or boss? Mike Duggan: I can't come right at a funder or board member. But you build a relationship, and you hope you can build it to a point where you can say something sarcastically, or maybe make a joke, like 'You're annoying me,' and they know it's a joke, but also understand what I'm saying. One funder appreciated this approach. Another one, it just didn't work. I said, 'I can't do this. If this is the way it's going to be, I don't want your money.' We turned the grant down. Barbara Rachelson: If it's a board member, I'll take them out to lunch. A lot of times it's somebody whose intentions are quite good, but it's about seeing the world from their perspective, and seeing what's troubling for them, and how we can work it out so their needs are being met and they can back off some.

Maurie Bergeron: Having been with the agency for a while, I've been able to develop relationships with folks, and I know when it's worth an argument and when it's not. On one level it's about being able to be strategic in choosing what you're going to respond to and let bristle you. But a lot of times, there will be a problem, and someone will say, 'That's just so-and-so; that's the way they are.' That's not acceptable. The people who tend to be bullying aren't the people you can have a conversation with. I can have an argument with them and be very clear: 'Don't do that.' But for change to happen, it's about finding points of influence, and sometimes that means enlisting the help of other people.		For change to happen, it's about finding points of influence, and sometimes that means enlisting the help of other people.
NEN: At one time or another, we've probably all been difficult ourselves, or at least been described that way by colleagues. How have you dealt with your own foibles? Mike Duggan: I ask my board chairman, 'What do you see, what do you think?' Almost quarterly, I ask my leadership groups: 'What are your strengths and challenges and where are you in working on your stuff?' And then I ask, 'Okay, what about my stuff? You see it, so just confirm that you're seeing it.' Whether they're honest or not, I don't know. Maurie Bergeron: Over the years, people have been quite forthcoming with me. In the moment I may think they're real jerks, but in the long run it's helped me. I had actually been thinking of, when I do evaluations with the staff, having them evaluate me. But I've wondered if it would be legit. Not because I don't want the feedback, because I actually do, but I don't want it to produce anxiety for anybody else. Mike Duggan: A few years ago, we had 10 people in a leadership team. I said, 'We all know what everybody's talking about behind everybody's back. So let's just say it, and get it out.' So everybody had to meet with every other leadership person, and say this is what your strengths are and this is where your weaknesses are. Some people could own it, and some people, it's taken three years to recover. NEN: What tools, trainings or resources can you recommend to others? Barbara Rachelson: A really good employment attorney — everybody needs that resource. Actually another good resource is, if you are going to terminate somebody, have a checklist. I have twice fired people who darned if they didn't have no means of transportation out of the agency that day — their car was in the shop or whatever. There are just certain things you want to make sure you have — a box for them to pack up their stuff, for instance. RESOURCES DOMUS' 'COMMON SENSE TRAINING' FOR NEW HIRES Q&A: MARY IMBORNONE ON HIRING AND RETAINING GOOD EMPLOYEES WHAT IS YOUR EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE QUOTIENT? ABOUT.COM: DIFFICULT PEOPLE TIPSforSUCCESS.ORG BOOKS OF INTEREST

New England Network for Child, Youth & Family Services
156 College St., Suite 301, Burlington VT 05401
Phone: (802) 658-9182 Fax: (802) 951-4201